FATHER JOSEPH
Contraception is a terrible sin!
A SINNER
Father, bless.
I agree for the most part with the thesis you bring forth in this article, but when it comes to defining fornication a sexual union between wife and husband if they do not want the seed deposited in the woman’s womb, I think it goes out of the licit.
There is no passage of the Scripture stating that they can come together only for the purpose of procreation, and depositing your seed in whatever place of your wife during the marital union you are depositing it in your own flesh; hardly an unnatural location for your seed, even simply on her skin, your seed does not leave its natural location: your own flesh. After all, we are really different from the animals, that saint should have considered this, we are persons, with a rational (free) will, in the image of the Most High, and we can surely decide what to do with the seed and with our wife, having authority upon both of them, provided that it does not contradict specific demands from God (like Onan did) nor His commandments.
Of course, this does not mean that you avoid completely having children in your marriage (unless you sanctify it beyond measure by chastity), but it certainly means that you can decide how much (and when) you can bear in your misery and weakness. The marital bed is undefiled, no exception is stated in the Scripture. The two will become one flesh, no condition is stated in the Scripture. My body belong to my wife, her body to me, no attachment is found in the Scripture. As for multiply yourself, we have done it, no quantity is stated in the Scripture.
You must also consider our brethrens which are united in marriage with non-Christian or heterodox or non-believers, and they stay with them as St. Paul teaches, after converting to the Faith. The Scripture does not prescribe the other should convert, only that he/she has to be willing to stay. Would it be better that the newly converted break his marriage, not being possible to live it in a completely Christian way? But the Scripture commands, Thou shalt not break your marriage.
Do not put undue burdens upon little ones already confused by hierarchs which stay in communion with hierarchs who communes and concelebrates with schismatics, and by perverts in Orthodox attires who preach and justify the abomination in the Church of God, with their hierarchies being silent again and again.
FATHER JOSEPH
What you are teaching is contrary to the Christian Faith, and is not in agreement with the consistent teaching of Orthodox Christian Saints for 2000 years.
Even depositing your seed on your own flesh is unnatural. Your seed doesn’t belong in your hand, on your skin, or in someone’s mouth. The Saints have explicitly condemned masturbation and oral sex, on the same level as fornication, adultery, and homosexual activity. It is absolutely forbidden. If you include your wife in such activities, you are getting her involved in very serious sin.
A SINNER
Well, father, if I am doing a very serious sin, you are not helping much simply repeating that it’s forbidden. I am not talking about masturbation or this and that sex; I am talking about the coming together of husband and wife, the two who become one flesh, an union in an undefiled bed. I’m not having sex with anyone, she’s my wife!
Whoever says that anything of that coming together is on the same level of fornication, adultery or homosexual activity (no less!), well, should better watch himself, lest he be failing the Logos.
It would be helpful if you could tell what scriptural basis have provided those who have passed this “consistent teaching”, as I have provided scriptural quotes to found my warning about comparing marital activities with fornication or worse.
I am aware of a negative attitude by many saints towards anything occurrring in the marital bed except fugacious conjunctions of sexes and discharge of seed in the womb of the woman (as animals do), but I am asking what God’s statute or scriptural revelation have given them authority to judge the marital bed.
You know, not infrequently, not a few of the saints have stated foolish things among their exceptional podvig and glorious service to God: one spoke of the crucifixion of the Lord as a sacrifice to the devil; another understood very little of the ancestral sin and of the Most Holy Trinity, another congratulated herself with the godless assassins of a holy man, believing their slander, and so on.
I am also aware that not everything which is licit is profitable, but this is not a justification to label something occurring in the marital bed, between husband and wife, as a serious sin, as fornication or worse. Licit it stays!
You say:
A modernist might say, “The marital act has two good purposes. It is fine to pursue one of those purposes, while simultaneously trying to avoid the other.” Unanimously, the Saints of the Orthodox Church would reject this statement.
A traditionalist might say, “The marital act has two good purposes, and these purposes should never be artificially separated from one another.” Numerous Orthodox Saints would gladly agree with this statement.
A Christian would say:
The marital act has many good purpose, all of them blessed, the most important being the two coming together again in one flesh, like they were before God took a rib out of Adam and presented him the woman, simbolizing the union of Christ with His Church, the coming together of God and man again after the Fall.
Thus the Scripture says, and let’s see who is going to take offence at that.
Pleasure is not evil in itself. There is pleasure in being alive. There is pleasure in drinking of the fruit of the vine. There is pleasure enjoying all the gifts of the Lord. There is pleasure being in Christ. As anything else, pleasure is evil only when it is pursued against the Lord or as a goal in itself, as an idol, when you let it possess you.
From the Scripture readings of today:
I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.
Should we destroy him with his marital bed? Don’t let your good be spoken of as evil.
FATHER JOSEPH
It appears that you have no interest in following the unanimous consensus of the teachings of the Saints on this topic. You seem to have invented your own theology, and you seem willing to judge 2000 years’ worth of Orthodox Saints, believing yourself to be right, and 100% of them to be wrong.
If that is your approach, then of course nothing I say will sway you. If you won’t listen to the Saints which God has given to teach the Church, then neither will you listen to me.
Be that as it may, at least I have warned you. Your marriage provides no justification for such behavior.
May the Lord have mercy on both of you.
A SINNER
It appears that the Church has that same “different theology” than you and a number of saints (not 100% of them), unless you can provide me with the relevant information: an Ecumenical Council or the Synod of my Bishops formally putting boundaries upon the coming together of husband and wife in their (undefiled, as the Scripture says) marital bed.
I cannot listen to you if you do not say anything relevant, other than repeat the bad attitude of some saints against husbands and wives not depriving themselves of one another (as the Scripture says, again, lest they be tempted by Satan), always thanking God for giving one to the other.
I ask once more: what God’s statute or commandment, or where in the Scripture is the revelation, which gives them (and you) the authority to judge the marital beds of men?
I’m asking to all of you happening to read this. I have only my weakness and misery to (eventually) correct, not any righteousness to boast of and defend.
Until the time I get a faithful answer, shame on whoever calls or compares anything going in that undefiled bed to “fornication, adultery, or homosexual activity”.
I am however sure that the Lord will be merciful to all of them who have passed on a doubtful teaching, not imputing to them the many marital bonds shattered by a judgement shaping in the likeness of animals the core of their sacred union in one flesh, to be done almost ashamed inside precise boundaries of guilty; a teaching atrociously exacerbated in the heterodox West, causing many souls to falter in their faith and succumb to their weakness, being privated even of this consolation and cement in their marriage.
Thank you for your prayers for me and my wife. Indeed, the mercy of the Lord is our only hope. I just hope that you stopped short of thanking God for your righteousness.
FATHER JOSEPH
The sacred union of one flesh is sacred whenever the union takes place in a sacred way. It is not sacred, when the union takes place in a profane and defiled way.
For example, when the Saints condemn the sin of sodomy, they do so without regard for the identities of the people involved. When a man sodomizes his own wife, it is just as wicked as sodomizing another man. In both cases it is called sodomy, and in both cases, the Saints offer equivalent levels of penance.
When Scripture says that the marital bed is sacred, that simply means that there is nothing wrong with married couples having the sorts of intimate relations which God intended. It does not mean that “anything goes”. It does not mean that you may use each other in any way that you please.
An Ecumenical Council is not needed to establish these truths, any more than it is needed to establish the propriety of paedocommunion or the canon of Scripture. Orthodox Christian teaching is determined according to the consensus of the Saints, not merely by Ecumenical Councils alone.
Indeed, the Ecumenical Councils themselves would carry no weight, were it not for the numerous holy Saints who attended and led them. Numerous Orthodox churches might send hundreds of bishops together for a council, and if the Holy Spirit did not lead the council via His Saints, then the council might be nothing more than a robber council promoting heresy, as happened in 449, 753, and a number of other times in history.
Hundreds of bishops getting together in council do not necessarily establish official Orthodox doctrine.
Orthodox doctrine is determined according to the consensus teaching of the Saints. You look at what the Church consistently taught throughout its history, throughout the world, just as the Vincentian canon says. And if you find that a particular modern group goes against this patristic consensus — even if that modern group is currently in the majority — then that modern group is wrong. If you want to be Orthodox, then you do not reject the consensus of the Saints.
I have done the work of citing numerous Saints, from numerous centuries, from all over the world, who have consistently condemned the use of birth control, including nontraditional bedroom activities which are inherently unfruitful. I have provided the consensus teaching of the Saints.
I am still waiting for you to quote a single Orthodox Saint who approves of such things. I have the feeling that I may be waiting a long time.
A SINNER